Creating a more accessible online world – Scott Hollier

There's a common misconception that assistive technologies only benefit a few – namely those with special access needs. However, innovations like voice assistants, text-to-speech and captions are things most of us use everyday, and at some point in our lives we or someone we know will rely on assistive technologies.

Dr Scott Hollier, CEO & co-founder of the Centre For Accessibility Australia, joins us to discuss digital access tools and creative approaches that make digital spaces easier to navigate. He shares how early design choices, strong accessibility standards and lived experience can shape richer online projects, including the Library’s award-winning Mouthful of Dust web experience.

The conversation looks at emerging guidelines, the pros and cons of AI-driven accessible tech, and the vital role libraries play in protecting information integrity while opening access to more people.

Transcript

0:00:01 - 0:01:45
Ana Tiquia
Imagine you're in a library reading room. It's quiet, but you can hear the creak of floorboards and footfalls on marble stairways above. Voices gently echo throughout the vast space. You're partway through a research project, combing through endless newspaper records, and between the noises and cycling through an ungodly number of apps and tabs, you find yourself feeling tired and distracted. As you slip on your headphones and look back at the archived news clipping on your screen,you notice an icon in the corner: Text-to-speech. With a click or two, the document is read aloud while you take notes. Text-to-speech was originally designed for blind people or people with low vision, but this feature now helps anyone multitask or reduce screen fatigue. Recently, we were lucky to be joined by one of Australia's most highly regarded experts in digital accessibility, Dr. Scott Hollierwho points out that text-to-speech is just the beginning.From captions to voice assistants, autocorrect to dark mode. Accessible technology doesn't just help a few, it makes life easier for all of us – and libraries have been at the forefront of digital access.I'm Ana Tiquia, Head of Digital Strategy, Research and Insights at State Library Victoria and you're listening to an SLV LAB podcast, part of its Conversations series, where we discuss emerging technology, digital experimentation and library futures with artists, technologists and workers in the cultural sector.0:01:45 - 0:02:15
Scott Hollier
One really important role for libraries going forward is to have the integrity of the information. One of the challenges of this AI world we're entering is it's just so hard to figure out – is this information real or not? So to have both the accessibility aspect where information can be gathered in a way that's accessible, and also to have the confidence that that information is accurate, I think those two things together, whatever that might look like in the era we're going into, Libraries just have an absolutely critical role in what's to come.0:02:15 - 0:04:46
Ana Tiquia
Scott Hollier has devoted his career to making the digital world more welcoming for everyone. An internationally recognised researcher and speaker, Scott is the CEO and co-founder of the Centre for Accessibility Australia, a not for profit organisation dedicated to removing barriers to access through advocacy, research and education. Scott holds a PhD in Internet Studies and academic positions at Edith Cowan University and the University of South Australia.He was a finalist for the 2022 Australian of the Year, and is currently helping shape global standards for web accessibility through the W3C. Scott is also legally blind, giving him a unique perspective on the importance of inclusive design. We were also joined by Mike Daly, the library's Head of Creative Studio. Mike's team produced 'Mouthful of Dust', a multi-award-winning web experience that lets you explore highly detailed, almost 1-1 digital renderings of Ned Kelly's artefacts.Scott and the Centre for Accessibility were involved in the project from the start. Aside from ensuring the experience met accessibility standards, Scott's team ultimately shaped its creative direction. In this conversation, we explored why accessibility matters, how creative design and inclusive technology can work hand-in-hand, and what the future of digital access might look like. The following conversation was recorded on the unceded lands of the WurundjeriWoi Wurring people of the Kulin nation. We acknowledge the traditional lands of all the Victorian Aboriginal clans and their cultural practices and knowledge systems. At State Library, we recognise that the collection holds traditional cultural knowledge belonging to Indigenous communities in Victoria and around the country. We support communities to protect the integrity of this information gathered from their ancestors in the colonial period.We pay our respects to their elders, past and present, who have handed down these systems of practice to each new generation for millennia, and would also like to acknowledge and pay our respects to any First Nations listeners joining us for this conversation.Just to sort of kick us off, Scott, I was just wondering if you could start by introducing yourself, and also, I was really keen to hear more about how you came to doing this work around digital accessibility. Scott: So I basically got into the area of digital access when I was completing my university studies. I did interesting combination of a major in computer science, but the minor in creative writing.0:04:46 - 0:07:22
Scott Hollier
So I had the fortunate opportunity to both code and write poems as well, which is a great combination. And as I went into the workforce, I noticed that there were a lot of people that had disabilities that could really benefit from the technology. For example, I had a little bit more vision then, but as I am legally blind now... but, I used to change the colours to make it easy to see the computer and it occurred to me that there's a really great opportunity here to help people, disability, be able to embrace technology, to be able to participate more in the workforce.But they really didn't seem to be that many people a disability getting that opportunity. So, I was really keen to undertake research and to try to learn more about how people with disability could be supported, with the assistive technologies. And, so as things can happen with the study bug, that evolved into more study and gradually led to a PhD, which in turn, you know, really delve deep into trying to find out how to make a computer and the internet more accessible to people with disability.And, as time went on, I really tried to find a way to make a difference in the field and that largely led to specialising around digital access in setting up the not-for-profit Centre For Accessibility Australia. Ana: Could you tell us a bit more about the work that you do with Centre For Accessibility Australia, and a little bit more about how the Centre came about?So the Centre For Accessibility Australia is a not-for-profit dedicated to alleviating hardship caused by digital access issues for people with disability, their families and carers. There's really three main parts to what we do. The first is that we provide direct support to people wanting to set up devices, so if people have Windows or Mac, iPhone, Android – different devices and computers.We give people free support to get those assistive technologies up and running. The ones that are built into their devices. We also strongly advocate for the importance of digital access. So every two years we run the Australian Access Awards. And we also have some more commercial services around, training and providing support along those lines.We have 15 staff, 11 of which have lived experience of disability. The Centre started really because, I did work for a time for a not for profit based in Sydney, and that non-for-profit went off in a different direction. And, there was a real gap in meeting those needs of people with disability and helping them to get technologies up and running.And so myself and two others, we wanted to, really get that happening. And so we decided to start an initiative to give people a hand and also give organisations support in getting accessibility happening. And, as that continued to evolve, that led to the creation of the not-for- profit and it all went from there.0:07:23 - 0:07:43
Ana Tiquia
So Centre For Accessibility Australia focuses on alleviating hardships that are caused by digital access issues. Could you tell us a bit more about what that looks like in practice? Scott: Essentially, there's two main things that, lead to challenges with digital access. One is that people may not be aware of the great accessibility features, available in everyday devices.0:07:43 - 0:11:19
Scott Hollier
And also, we need to make sure that content is created with accessibility in mind. And often that doesn't happen. So, we work really hard as a not-for-profit organisation to address those two issues. So making sure that people with disability do have the right tools and their device of choice so that they can independently use those devices.And the great thing is that that first part is largely addressed now. When we do buy our everyday devices, we do have great assistive technologies built in, and there are still the options to buy those third party ones as well. So the second part of the coin is making sure that the content works with those tools. And that's where the work we do with organisations, including here with the State Library Victoria, and supporting the Mouthful of Dust project.You know, we've had the great privilege to, provide that type of support and just, work with organisations in partnership to give people a hand on that journey. Mike Daly: How does accessibility compare between, Windows and Apple platforms? I know that's often a a big battle for some people between these two platforms. How do you see it?It's a great question. And, look it's something that does come up in my house a lot because, I am a Windows and Android person. My wife is Apple products all the way. So this is something that we often, debate at home. But look, essentially both do have great accessibility features built in. Apple probably gets a bit more credit in introducing, more fully fledged accessibility in the early days.But, Microsoft certainly caught up with Windows. Windows probably on the desktop level has a slight advantage that it does have both touch screen support and traditional keyboard and mouse support with accessibility. So a lot of the features can be used both by touch screen or keyboard as on a Mac. It's largely keyboard only. But, if we look to mobile devices, the iPhone is an extremely good, accessible device, and Android is probably, slightly off the pace in comparison, but still has really more and more polished products evolving.I personally use an Android smartphone for my needs. I use a screen reader called Talkback on my phone. On Windows, I use a screen reader called Narrator. And I also use a combination with my limited vision of zooming in on the screen and the high contrast colour theme. So for my personal needs, I could use any of the major platforms and that would be effective in being able to access things.But all things being equal, all the major platforms do have great accessibility these days. Mike: Good to hear. Ana: Just for fairness, I am going to ask about Linux for the Linux users out there. Scott: And that's a great question to ask! So, in terms of Linux, it is getting better and better. So if you do need to use, a screen magnifier and a screen reader there's things like Orca.And it, it is getting better. I think Linux has the challenge of being, you know, very fragmented in terms of lots of different distributions. So, some have accessibility, some need to install accessibility. So, the fragmentation of Linux has been so many different variants does make it a little more challenging to find a really accessible Linux platform to start with.But, yeah, I do have, some blind friends that do use the screen readers in Linux and use that as their daily driver, especially as nearly everything in Linux can be done through Command Line which, you know, is a direct, translation for screen reader software. So, yeah, I mean, I love Linux as a concept.I think the fact that it's free, it has great software installed. And hopefully, as the community continues to evolve, accessibility will just get better and better.0:11:19 - 0:12:19
Ana Tiquia
It's been really wonderful working, with yourself an the Centre, as you mentioned, on projects such as Mouthful of Dust and also on the SLV LAB website. One of the reasons we were really keen to work with yourselves and other access partners around our kind of digital projects, is that one of our missions here at the Library is to be free to access and open to all.And we identified pretty early onwards that a key part of our digital strategy really needed to put digital access and accessibility at the forefront. I really loved hearing that your background has been both in terms of code as well as poetry.And I wanted to ask you about what you saw, the possibilities of creative designer-ly and I guess artistic approaches to working with access and accessibility in the digital space. Scott: One of the challenges and misconceptions that often comes up in the digital access space is people often have the view that, in order to make content accessible, you have to dull down the creativity.0:12:19 - 0:13:24
Scott Hollier
It has to be boring. It has to all be, you know, similar colours, has to be a big print. And there's really not a lot of, opportunity to be creative. But that's not really the case. What we notice is that a lot of websites and apps and content across the world – to take the BBC, for example, which is one of the most media rich websites around – they're also highly accessible.And so I think the really important message and, you know, something I've really seen resonate here is that, you can absolutely do creative work. It's really important to be as creative as possible. And it's not that you have to stop being creative to make it work for people disability, but people with disability want to participate and enjoy that creativity.They want to see that great work. They want to be a part of incredible, exhibitions and displays and the information that's provided. So rather than looking at accessibility as something that might be a hindrance to creativity, I think it's a great opportunity to look at, you know, what other ways can we ensure that the great creative work that's being done reaches the widest possible audience and people with disability love to embrace that work.0:13:24 - 0:13:47
Mike Daly
Mouthful of dust isn't a typical website. It has 3D scans instead of, photographs or text, and it has scenes instead of pages. So what was the process for your team in terms of consulting on the project and auditing it? Was it similar to other projects you do, or did you have to take a different approach?0:13:48 - 0:18:03
Scott Hollier
It was a bit of both. So, the baseline that we do when we do audits is that, to make content accessible, we turn to the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, or WCAG, and that's the international standard produced by the World Wide Web Consortium. And so we do audit against that standard. And also, there's a part of WCAG, supporting documents called WCAG EM which is the evaluation methodology.And that all sounds a bit technical, but the upshot is that it lays out a very clear path on how you can look at websites or apps or documents. You can take a sample of that information. You can then work your way through what the guidelines recommend about accessibility and so even if content is, you know, perhaps a little, different or unusual to a typical website, the Standard is really helpfulin being able to identify how we can make things accessible. So, for example, you know, having captions on video, having alternative text on images, having really clear things around colour contrast, just to pick a few. So, what's really good about the standard is it helps us have that baseline. Now, that said, what was great about this project is that as you say there's, a lot of innovation.And it's, you know, just amazing what, information is provided. So the really nice thing about this project is we were able to work with the library from the very beginning of the project. So we were able to, provide that support as as the project developed at the website developed. So in addition to our standard auditing processes, it was terrific that through our staff with lived experience of disability to provide input to be involved in that journey.And, you know, the product is amazing and accessible and, yeah, that's a fantastic outcome. Mike: We started working with you really early on in the project. I remember, is that common for, people you work with or companies you work with, to collaborate with you from the beginning? Or do they often come to you with a finished website at the end and just ask you to audit it?It's a great question, and it's not that common, for organisations to come and say let's start right from the beginning, but it's a great opportunity if that happens, One of the misconceptions of digital access is that it's it's an expensive thing to do, that, you take a website, it's costly and time consuming to make it accessible.But that is often because of people coming very late in the piece to find that it's something accessible. So it's a really good point you make that unfortunately it's not normal to work from an early stage. Usually, people come to us when it's like, okay, we're going to launch soon. Oh yeah, there's some accessibility thing we need to check.Yeah. Let's, let's get that looked at and it's like, oh no! And there's a few issues there. And so, you know, and then unfortunately it can be, time consuming and expensive to retrofit at the 11th hour. But if organisations adopt that WCGA standard were talking about earlier, if organisations embrace digital access through the journey of development, whether you have a company like ours involved or not, if you can embrace that those WCAG guideline principles, then, it really isn't really extra time or money.It's more about the process of developing things, maybe a little different to how it would have been developed before. But, you know, just adopting different processes. And then at the end of the day, it's not more expensive and time consuming, but it turns out accessible. So, you know, that was the great opportunity we had in, working on Mouthful of Dust, to be able to provide that support through the journey.But whether an organisation like ours is engaged or not, if organisations do follow, that WCAG standard, then is it'll largely turn out accessible. And then when you do do those checks at the end, there probably won't be too much to fix up. So, I would certainly encourage anyone listening that if you are looking to make your site accessible or you're just embarking on a new projectHave a look at the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. We have great free resources on our website at accessibility.org.au. And, yeah, just really embrace those concepts. And then, it'll largely be good in the end. Ana: So yesterday, Scott, you took our staff at the Library and came to the Library through an all day workshop, with a focus on improving digital access and learning some digital accessibility skills that they can apply in their own work.0:18:03 - 0:18:41
Ana Tiquia
One of the exercises that I found really fascinating was your invitation for all of us to, effectively listen to the web or listen to what we saw in browser through the use of screen readers. And, one of the things that was really, noticeable for me was the many different ways in which we might experience a website, many different ways in which we might, experience the web, and to me, that also just feels like it's an invitation to open up both creative and artistic exploration of different kinds of digital experience too. There's been lots of artists such as, I guess Christine Sun Kim, or locally, artists such as Fayen D'Evie0:18:41 - 0:22:14
Scott Hollier
who've been doing some really interesting work around using of audio description or closed captioning or alt text for creative purposes. And I was just curious about maybe with the two of you, what sort of, futures you saw for artistic experimentation in this area. Scott Hollier: Great question. And I think the future is looking really interesting because we're seeing not just creative use of things like alt text and audio description, as you say, but also, where will AI fit in into undertaking some of those things?So we're just starting to see now that, autogenerated alternative text, is improving. So that means that AI can look at an image and give you some information about what that image is. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not, as is often the case with AI, but the fact that, you know, only two years ago, I would say, if someone didn't put alternative text or description on an image, then I, as a legally blind user, wouldn't have any idea what that image is.Now, AI can have a fair go at figuring that out and coming into the creative space, I think that, you know, it can open up some opportunities to improve accessibility. I think there are some trade offs with AI. And, you know, we're still very early days, and I think there are some creative concerns as well.And something we touched on is around, privacy and security concerns as well. Having to give up so much information to get some of these benefits. But, in terms of creativity, I think the ability to look at accessibility as another creative tool, another opportunity to engage with an audience, could be really powerful.And I think, yeah, AI is opening up some unexpected opportunities in it. Mike: I think, one thing that excites me is the the gap between what's experimental in the web and what's accessible is narrowing. I remember when Flash was around, back in the early 2000s, and that was always this locked-off garden if you dived into that technology. And the web's developing in this way where you can be quite experimental and you can do new things and still embrace accessibility.Absolutely. And it's a really good point you make about Flash that, you know, it's often the case that if you used a keyboard to navigate around, as screen reader users often do, it often end up in some Flash thing, and then you try to come back tab because you got stuck. And then that was pretty much the end of your experience.You know, quite often for Flash. So as you say, the web has evolved a lot with HTML5, you know, removing the need for that. And, we are seeing more and more technologies being integrated. You only had to look at, things like the Wayback Machine and others to look back at websites, even 15 years ago and saying that, you know, it's a really different landscape and accessibility is definitely getting better.And there's a lot more awareness and, you know, from the work we do, you know, it's it's a privilege every day to have organisations knock on out doors saying, you know, we want to make a difference in this space. We want to improve this space. And the Access Awards we have, coming up shortly. You know is a great opportunity to celebrate organisations that are making a difference in this space.So, I do think it's getting better all the time. Mike: One type of code, that Mouthful of Dust's very talented web developer Nick Paustian used quite a lot was aria-labels. I'll admit that the first time I heard the term, I thought the conversation veered off to talking about some music awards. Scott: They're important too. Mike: But it seemed that they were.0:22:14 - 0:22:33
Mike Daly
I won't go as far as to say they were the magic sauce of of doing something experimental on the web, but they did help in areas where there wasn't a more traditional way of, describing something on a web page. I know it's quite a specific thing to discuss, but I was wondering, Scott, if you could just talk about aria-labels very briefly, maybe explain what they are?0:22:33 - 0:23:35
Scott Hollier
Yeah, certainly. So, Aria stands for accessible rich internet applications. Essentially what Aria does is it provides some more direct commands to assistive technology. So if you're using a screen reader and you're listening to a voice guide you around the website, then one part of Aria, for example, is landmarks where you can say, okay, yeah, this section is the main navigation.This section is the main body, this section is the footer. And it just allows you to quickly jump around the different sections. And one of the challenges of using a screen reader is it's a very linear process. So it really tries to pull the information out of something like a website and it restructures it so that you can listen to it in a linear order.The challenge is that, you know, visually, you can you can see different parts of content and you can easily get to them. So one part of our aria is to provide those landmarks and that can just be one really helpful thing to get people to be able to easily jump around content. So yeah, just, adding some aria landmarks can make a huge difference in supporting navigation.0:23:35 - 0:24:18
Mike Daly
Another approach that Nick and I learned a little leant into is having multiple ways of doing anything. So, for example, to orbit around the scanned objects in the menu of Mouthful of Dust, you could click and drag you could press a key on the keyboard, click on an icon that represented the object. You would move to, click on an arrow to move to the next object, or even use optional on screen controls.So there are at least five methods of doing that. One thing is this approach of having multiple ways of doing things, something that just unconventional projects like Mouthful of Dust need to employ, or is a sort of a central part of web accessibility in general. Scott: It really is a central part. So much so that, having multiple ways of doing something is included in the WCAG standard.0:24:18 - 0:25:29
Scott Hollier
But, what I think is great about Mouthful of Dust is it has really embraced that to provide a huge variety of ways that people can engage with that content. And often when we talk about digital access, it's not necessarily the case that you need to give people the same experience as someone using a screen reader or zoomed in on the magnifier, or giving verbal commands to navigate - they will all have different experiences.But if we can give people the equivalent experience, we can give people the same, you know, powerful outcome from fantastic projects like a Mouthful of Dust and really that's the that's the main objective. And so having multiple ways to engage with that content, really supporting the best way for whatever works for the person with a disability or the end user generally just means that everyone can get access to this great project and the many other things that State Library Victoria is doing.So, the Standard does particularly take note of having multiple ways to get around things, multiple ways to engage with things. Becausethe more options there are, the easier it is. Ana: You know, from your conversation earlier about just how many tools are available, so many assistive technology tools are available, across all the platforms as well.0:25:29 - 0:26:10
Ana Tiquia
You know, it's it feels like there's a lot of tools available, but perhaps as sometimes a lack of literacy on the part of organisations as to how they could be using them to design and develop their digital products and services better. Are there any kind of simple things you could recommend to anyone who's... I think yesterday you mentioned that you saw accessibility as a journey.Is there anything you could recommend for any individuals or organisations that, looking to sort of start out on their journey, to improve access? Scott: Absolutely. And it is true, when I've personally come across accessibility challenges, it's never occurred to me that there's a company deliberately trying to make it hard for me to use an app or making a website difficult to use.0:26:11 - 0:28:28
Scott Hollier
I think it really does come down to awareness. And usually when we have conversations and point out, you know, oh, if you, you know, have your website wit this bit of information as alternative text or you put captions on that video, you're really embracing these audiences. People are often surprised and go, oh, yeah, that just totally makes sense.And so, that awareness is really a huge part of why we exist and what we want to achieve. iIn terms of quick tips, there are a few things that are worth being aware of. And, although it's not a definitive solution to accessibility, quite often the tools we use every day do have the ability to check for accessibility.So, for example, if you're writing a Word document, if you go to the Review tab, in Word, and close to where you'll see the editor button, spellcheck a few icons along, you'll see, check accessibility and that won't check everything. These tools are limited in what they can do, but as a first step, it's a great opportunity just to go.Okay, well, you know, what possible problems are there? Often things like missing alternative text will get picked up and they'll step through how to add onto alternative text to an image and some of the basics there. So it is worth noting that number of real everyday tools that we use do have accessibility support. And so learning a bit about, you know, what we can do those quick and easy way to do things is a great first step.And saying earlier on our website, we do have a lot of great free information to support people through the, Web Content Accessibility guidelines, which are those 13 overarching guidelines and a number of practical tips to give people a hand beyond that. So, if people are just starting this journey, yeah. Have a look for that check accessibility button in your documents.There's a few free tools like Wave which can check websites. You can learn more about that at wave.webaim.org. And also if you want to put captions on the video, there's a great tool called Amara, amara.org, which is another free tool which can be really helpful in putting captions on video to support people who are deaf or hard of hearing.So there's a few really great tools out there. No cost and, really helpful to get started.0:28:28 - 0:29:14
Ana Tiquia
Scott, one of the things I was really interested in, in the talk that you gave to staff yesterday was, you touched upon some of the histories of digital innovation, particularly, some of the digital innovation that we would see as contributing to kind of technologies or AI assistive technologies, such as speech-to-text or text-to-speech.And, I think you made the really interesting point that so much of the the origins of these innovations have actually come through assistive technologies and technology development. Scott Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And I think one of the really interesting things about AI, while it does have its challenges, it's also a really interesting space is because sometimes there'll be a particular accessibility challenge which is something you accept is just not possible to overcome.0:29:14 - 0:34:40
Scott Hollier
And then one day, something pops up on your phone or on your computer and makes things possible. So one example of that is, as a legally blind person, taking a selfie is something that has been a bit challenging for me. I like to go on trips and things. And if I am away from my wife, kids, I like to try and get some photos.But yes, in the past, being a legally blind person trying to line up a camera has been a bit challenging. And then one day, an update came down my phone from Google, which has a guided selfie frame. And so now I can hold my phone up and little voice is up a bit, right a bit.Okay. Three, two, one click. And thanks to that, I can now take a reasonable selfie every time. And this is something that just popped up on my phone one day because, there was some innovation in the space and that made things possible. And likewise, when people do make, content accessible, you know, to move from something that is impossible to possible, this makes a huge difference.So likewise, with captioning, you know, we're seeing improvements with live captioning, getting better and better for supporting people who are deaf or hard of hearing. And it's about 90% accurate now, it's still got a little bit of work to do as AI tries to process the information and provide captions based on speech. But we've seen some innovations there as well.And that's getting better all the time. And I think in the future, you know, it might well be the case that some of the accessibility issues that we talk about might be rendered before we even get to the page. So perhaps AI will be able to say, yeah, look, that website is missing some alternative text for images.I think those headings need to be better structured. That colour contrast is a bit off. We might fix those things, before the user actually gets to them. And so again, there are benefits and issues with with AI being in our lives. But I think that from an accessibility standpoint, you know, that that type of innovation is promising.So I think there is, a lot of innovation to happen in the accessibility space. There's just a few examples of things that are quite exciting. And, yeah, I'm always looking forward to what's, the next adventure is that, you know, might turn up on my device. That is really helpful. Do you think that some of those, challenges you just mentioned, if browsers are jumping in and doing the work of coders and designers and developers to make websites or other forms of media accessible, that it might give a message to those creators that they don't actually have to work or integrate accessibility because the browser is going to do it for them.I think that is a genuine concern. And also, I mean, I wouldn't want AI to in any way hijack creativity. So I think that is a genuine risk. I'm certainly if people want colors to be a certain way, and I just made a decision that they should be different, then, you know, that could impact creativity. So I think there are certainly risks there.And as you say, it's really important that we still, get the message out there. The accessibility needs to be cared for and considered. So, I do think that's a valid concern. And, you know, I think the thing with AI generally at the moment is that, you know, everyone's throwing AI at the wall and seeing what sticks.So, you know, some things come from that which are positive. Some things come from that which don't work, and some things come from that, concerning. And, you know, I, I do notes that, in a lot of the, conversations we have in the disability, not space, and there is genuine concern that, you know, with AI becoming more common, you know, is impacting on creativity.And I think that's a really valid concern. So from an accessibility point of view, I think there could be some great benefits. But I do agree it shouldn't be at the, cost of, stopping people from being creative or being aware of the need for a digital access. A moment ago I just talked about the work of making things accessible, but I reflected on that a moment later and I feel like, oh, the work we did.I'll put that in quote marks on Mouth Full of Dust with accessibility and also the what we did yesterday in the workshop, the accessibility workshop with you, with the State Library staff, it didn't feel like work at all. It actually felt fun. There were these really interesting challenges that was sort of quite, enjoyable to solve, to make things, accessible.Well, I think and thanks so much for that feedback. And we always try to make workshops, you know, fun and engaging because at the end of the day, accessibility is about community. And so the chance to come together as a group, and, you know, have a look at what accessibility is, you know, we looked at, you know, a great audio described video with, which makes us laugh and, you know, we can see that accessibility, you know, can really be, an engaging force.It can really bring everyone together and say, yeah, I don't see that, you know, those innovations we talked about before on the horizon that. Yeah, I don't want those to take away from the ability to come together, to be able to to join and look at this space and, just think, well, what can we do to make sure that that we can all come together and I yeah, I don't think anything like AI is going to be able to create something like, I mean, I feel it does, or the accessibility behind that or the incredible creative, innovation of that project.So, the fact that we can come together, create something special and, make it accessible. Yeah, it really is about community and then engagement. So, no, it's a great pleasure to run that yesterday. I think I'm always struck by, always struck by the stats. And I think you shared some yesterday. That 18% of Australians currently experience or live with disability.0:34:40 - 0:35:34
Ana Tiquia
And, you know, it's really acknowledged that also many of us will will live with or experience disability at some point in their lives as well. I was just thinking this morning, I was lucky to be introduced by some disability justice advocates to the really wonderful work of Leah Lakshmi [Piepzna-Samarasinha], who wrote a book called 'The Future Is Disabled' and really posits this idea that, well, what if we thought about the future where when the majority of us experienced disability or lived with disability, it may me it made me reflect upon, the idea that there is often this sense of designing for others, but in fact, we could be designinghere, and developing here for all of our futures. And I just was wondering if you had any particular thoughts on that as well. I think it's absolutely true that, when we make things accessible, while we do think of it in the, context of supporting people with disability, we're really aiming to make it accessible to everyone.0:35:34 - 0:36:57
Scott Hollier
And some examples, that we've often come across is that, when we have live captioning, you might be at, your GP, you might be at a pub, you might be in the airport and you'll see captioning on the TV. And that's not because, everyone is deaf, but because in those environments, that live captioning is really helpful to be able to, keep track of that information.Likewise. In the UK, there's been some great information around shows being audio described. And for those people not aware of what the audio description is, is basically in the in describing the more visual aspects of a TV show or movie. And the feedback is that, people preparing dinner for their kids, they can just listen to the TV shows because all the visual parts are being read out as well.And, they can easily just keep track of that while they're cooking dinner and the getting things sorted for the family. And so neither of these are really, disability specific benefits, but they do benefit everyone. And it is absolutely the case. And we hear this time and time again, because as you say, at some point of our life, everyone will have a disability.But also just in our daily living, when we put accessibility into, something else every day environment, then it becomes useful. And so the more we can, embrace that, then, the better it is for everyone.0:36:57 - 0:37:15
Mike Daly
State Library Victoria is a finalist in the Access Awards with a mouthful of dust, which we're really excited about. They're going to be held in two weeks from today. I was wondering, could you just talk a little bit about the awards and why you started them? Yeah. So the Australian Excellence Awards, it's a really important part of the advocacy aspect of our organization.0:37:15 - 0:43:19
Scott Hollier
We have been trying to find a way to celebrate accessibility. And, what often happens, in terms of accessibility journey, is that people often stumble across the need for digital access from a, a legal compliance perspective. Someone said, you know, you're a bad organization or you have a bad website, you know, you might get sued.You, you know, you really need to focus on accessibility or you'll be in big trouble. And, this is something which I've, heard pop up quite a bit. And, it does have some impact. And look, I don't want to take away from the importance of legal compliance. We absolutely should be aware of what the legal requirements are.However, from our point of view, it's really important to think about the carrot rather than the stick. We want people to embrace the, opportunities like we've talked about today, that digital access represents the ability to really support the community, to support each other, to work together, to collaborate and partner when it comes to making things digital access related.And so we decided to start on the awards event, and this will be the fourth time we've run it. We've run it every two years and, yeah, it's been wonderful to have that, that really being embraced. We make sure the nominations are free so that, people with disability in the community can nominate and, it was it.Delighted to see a mouthful just, pop up as a finalist. And the judging is completely independent from us. But a whole range of accessibility professionals, from around the country and, when they judge, they basically look and say, you know, is doesn't meet the accessibility criteria. So if someone makes it as a finalist, it means that the, website or app, is really, really accessible.And so it was wonderful to see that being the case. But critically, the awards are about, the carrot, not the stick. And that's why our trophy is the Golden carrot. So that's, we do celebrate that carrot. And the fact that, we really want to lead, in terms of celebration, in terms of, enthusiasm and the ability to, work together in this space.Is there any way that people or organizations can get involved in the awards? Absolutely. We do have some, sponsors are always, you know, as a not for profit, we always welcome sponsorship. But, for this year, we're all good. But I tell you, we will be running to get into years time.But really, the the critical thing is, if you go to accessibility, the all the ag slash awards, you, you can see the finalists from previous years, you can see the winners and really, I'd just like to encourage people listening to have a look at the finalists, have a look at the winners, have a look at the organizations that are making a difference in this space.Have a look at the initiatives that are really doing great work in accessibility. Have a look at the individuals that we recognize. Because at the end of the day, these are the the places that are making a big difference. Leading by example. We've also noticed over the years that, for example, there was one year where, you know, a bank took out the award and we noticed several other banks, improving accessibility and then taking out the awards.And so part of, part of the aim of this is also to, you know, demonstrate what best practices and, and then that's often led by example. So, yeah, please check out, who is doing great work in this space and follow their example. The ceremony's taking place in Perth. Do you expect or hope that the award ceremony in the future might travel around Australia, or is it firmly rooted in Western Australia?We are in the Australia wide organization, but we are based in Perth. So, you know, we, we are having it in Perth at the moment, but, it is he's trying to access awards. I would love to, have a chance for it to, to travel around. So, yeah, we'll have a look at where things are at in two years time.I do acknowledge that Perth is quite some way away from, from a lot of other cities. And, you know, we're very fortunate that a lot of people do make the trek over. Also, we do have a live stream. So, great chance for people to still be a part of that. If they're not to, and understandably, many aren't near wa, but, the focus is national, where we're really keen to continue to, expanded with that national reach.And, yeah, I'd love to see it, go on the road. So, what's your space? Just wanted to kind of maybe end with a couple of futures questions. I do like to ask if you just, I just it's not. You are impartial to a features question, aren't you? I'm a little bit biased. I'm a little bit biased.Well, dust off the crystal ball. I was, wanting to just imagine a little bit like a future of of full digital access and an accessibility and if we would imagine a future where there were no barriers to access digitally, what were you see libraries such as the State Library of Victoria doing terrific question. You know, libraries are often at the forefront of looking at what how can information be provided in a variety of different ways and, you know, to, to go from traditional media to embracing online and now, seeing where things are going, I think, for me, it would really be about ten more assistive technologies access information.And also, I think one really important role, for libraries going forward is to have the integrity of the information. I think, you know, one of the challenges of this AI world we're entering is it's just so hard to figure out, is this information real or not? And, you know, we've seen this time and time again with, you know, even high level government reports being tripped up with referencing books that don't exist, pulling out information that's just not actually accurate.And I think, you know, one of the great things about libraries is that, you know, they have the integrity of the information. You know, that the information is real, you know, that it's, it's, evidence driven. And, to be able to rely on that process, that integrity, is something I think is becoming more and more important as time goes on.So to have both the accessibility aspect, where information can be gathered in a way that's accessible, and also to have the confidence that that information is accurate, I think those two things together, whatever that might look like in the era we're going into, you know, just shows that, libraries does have an absolutely critical role in what's to come.0:43:19 - 0:43:48
Ana Tiquia
And I think you've really teased out sort of almost to two parts of a very big conversation for libraries at the moment. Yeah, misinformation is such a huge topic. And, we actually have an exhibition, on misinformation called Make Believe, which is on at the moment, which you can see, in one of our galleries. I wanted to ask about, what you see changing in the accessibility landscape and if there's any really significant changes that you would like to see what they might be.0:43:48 - 0:46:45
Scott Hollier
Interestingly, the, Web content Accessibility Guidelines standard we were just talking about before, the current version is 2.2 and in development is, wcaG three. Now, the purpose of wcaG three is to basically do a complete ground up rebuild of the that international standard, because up until now, the standard is really focused on the web. And by proxy, that's also included apps and documents.But what about the Internet of Things? What about driverless cars? How will I fit into all these? And you know, what about our information resources? You know, how do we bundle all this up into some sort of accessibility requirement? And this is the question that, W3C is trying to answer at the moment. So that new standard is some years away.But I think this will be a really interesting space to, have a look at because, the international guidance does, have a huge focus on how we apply accessibility principles to everything that we do and so this new standard, I think, does have a great potential to provide support to us in that regard. So it's still a bit of an unknown at the moment.There is a fairly well developed draft now available online, but it will go through a lot of changes, and how it's strictly applicable, in the library space and others is it's still a bit of a question mark, but I think the fact that there is a lot of work in the international community, and I also where I help with W3C in terms of, actively participating in the international work.And it's you know, exciting to see internally just how many great people, especially in the accessibility space, working to look at a whole lot of different scenarios that might be just, over the horizon and, how accessibly to be applied. So, hard to give a concrete answer, but yeah, there is certainly interest in how to apply accessibility to the technologies of today and maybe the ten things we don't know about yet.So it's an exciting space to watch.I'd just like to acknowledge, how much we appreciate the chance to have worked at the State Library. Victoria. It is, as you mentioned, being, physically located in Perth. You know, sometimes we, don't get as much of an opportunity to travel and, talk to people and meet people and, really be part of why our not for profit exists is to, support people, whether it's locally, nationally or internationally, to just continue these accessibility conversations.And, you know, it's been a great opportunity for myself, my colleague Brian, to, to be here in Melbourne today. Yeah. It's been a wonderful opportunity to undertake this work. And it is a real testament to the work that State Library Victoria is doing. Great people and great projects, like a mouthful of dust that, I think, the accessibility work here is, looking bright and really promising.And thank you for the chance to be a part of it. Thank you so much, Scott. Yeah, thanks so much for joining us today. It's been really, really great to have you in the studio. And just to yeah, be able to talk more about access and accessibility with you. And thanks for your wonderful work as well. Thank you.